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September 02, 2010, 10:27:08 AM

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Question: Cooldowns of skills
Cooldown on basic attack associated with ROF. All other attacks independant cooldowns. - 9 (23.1%)
Global cooldown of all skills associated with weapons ROF - 3 (7.7%)
Global cooldown of all skills associated with weapons ROF with queued attacks - 4 (10.3%)
No cooldown on basic attack, special weapons skills on cooldown associated with ROF - 23 (59%)
Other, Please explain - 0 (0%)
Total Voters: 38

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Author Topic: CoolDowns?  (Read 6494 times)
Joker
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« on: April 18, 2009, 02:36:37 PM »
Okay.. So this has been bothering me a bit for a while and I have just been letting it build up in my brain before I make a post. I understand that Earthrise is going to be more RPG than FPS, but still we are using guns.

Lets talk about cooldowns. What are they good for? Why are they even needed?

Well in my opinion cooldowns should not be needed if there will be ammunition. (Really... I would like to stray away from mmo's that still keep cooldowns. In all honesty it is not realistic at all.) If there was just imaginary bullets that just come out of no where, than I would understand. But there is not! We actually have to buy ammunition. So why not instead of having a cooldown for no reason after each burst (really does a gun have to cooldown after each burst?) why not just put in ammunition clips? So after each clip you go through you have a brief cooldown because than you would be reloading which makes WAY more sense than having a cooldown for no reason. If you have an energy weapon why not put an overheat indicator? As long as you still have energy left in the power cell and do not over heat the gun. Than you should be allowed to keep on firing. If you do overheat you will have a brief cooldown.

Really MS should just remove ammunition all together if they are not aiming for something more FPS. It is really just unnecessary in my eyes to add ammunition if you are aiming to be an RPG. I am sorry but Sci-fi games should be more FPS than RPG. It just logical and does not make sense to make it an RPG since we are using guns.

Edit: This is all coming from a guy that plays FPS games. I always relate guns with FPS. Never with RPG. In my opinion you are restricting my use of how I use my gun. Also you are making it like a sword game Aka WoW, EQ, etc.. except with guns..
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 02:43:00 PM by Joker » Logged
Zoream
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« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2009, 02:45:40 PM »
Ammunition can add a variance to a weapon, it can add special effects, damage boost etc, Skill cooldowns is another issue, if we are talking modern weapons, then yes you would need a cooldown after each burst, to compensate for recoil, if the weapons we have in ER are advanced enough for no recoil, fair enough, ok onto special attacks, grenade launcher on a rifle single shot, reload, single shot, earthrise weapons may need a charge up, powercells might have to charge a grenade type shot up as not to destroy the battery, if so then it would be right to have a cooldown, also with psionics, it might but extra strain on your body to do specific actions, etc.
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Mykell
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« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2009, 02:58:53 PM »
100% agree Joker. When it comes to guns I would rather reloading times rather than cooldowns which are fine for melee combat. It just feels more natural (intuitive), helps immersion and gives me a greater sense of control. Probably too late at this stage to change it so hopefully the system they have in place is as involved as they say it will be.
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SK_Impolite
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« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2009, 03:51:37 PM »
Both cooldowns between shots and reloading times make sense in relation to modern weapons, although the values may need to be tweaked.  No weapons have an infinite cyclic rate, thus there is always a finite amount of time between shots.  I think the best way to handle this may be to make a "shot" from an assault rifle a 3-round burst, or even more depending on the cyclic rate of the weapon.  This allows the anaimations to match the speed of fire often associated with modern military weapons, but also keeps the length of a cooldown reasonable to allow use of abilities, etc.

An FPS has an incredibly basic combat system.  Fire, reload, sometimes a secondary fire, maybe zoom capability.  That's about all the combat system allows.  Everything else in an FPS is related to aim, manuever, and position.  In an MMORPG, there are far more possibilities for combat.  Imagine if your FPS weapon had not one or two modes of fire, but 12 or more, and they could all be used to attack an enemy in different ways.  What would happen is that you would pick one or two and use them pretty much all the time, because there is no time in an FPS to use more abilities.  The cooldown allows the space within combat to use all those other options and add a lot of strategic depth to the combat system.  Hopefully ER's system will still maintain a fair amount of a shooters intensity, though.  I don't think anyone here is looking for another WoW or EQ2 combat system.  We definitely want something more interactive, and I think that there is a good chance that ER will have that.  It's tough to tell for sure, though, without more information and/or videos being released.  I'd really like to see it addressed specifically in a QOTW.
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Tenshi
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« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2009, 08:36:43 PM »

I personally don't feel that some of the immersion factor
will be removed due to "cooldown" period on shooting,
quite the opposite actually. This is the case because
we are in a sci-fi setting, and as such, we have more
efficient (etc, etc) weapons. I feel that cooldown period
on weapons is actually okay, due to this reason. Also,
I do not want to have to worry about reloading as well as
keeping an eye on my abilities, imo this takes more
of the attention off the actual combat.
But this is my opinion Smiley.
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« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2009, 09:11:20 PM »
FPS combat with almost unnoticeable CDs between shots will be fun,but it could generate very large pressure on the server,as in ER there are going to be many fight,some small,some large scale,happening simultaneously on different locations. And since it's going to be using a dice throw system for combat calculations...well,it's pretty self-explanatory - Lots o' lag. Well,I might be wrong,but it looks that way.

But there could be some modifications done to the existing system so the combat seems a bit more realistic,it's too much like WoW in the videos,imo. Like maybe make bursts of shots (Depending on weapons) be on CD instead of each shot. Like you have 5 shots and then you get some CD because of recoil,overheating and etc. - Would seem more realistic. But so that you don't overload the system,the shots should have some kind of fixed dice variation - like if it was a d20 and you need 13+ to hit. First shot is 14,so are shots 3 and 5,while 2 and 4 are 1st shot -1 or -2? I don't really know how the system works,so it's really just a wild guess.  Undecided

But I'm also an FPS player and if MH could set up a FPS fighting system without causing major lag on large battles,it would be really fun  Smiley
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Diziet
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« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2009, 10:41:06 PM »
Just because you have ammo, does not mean your using bullets, least not in the conventional sense anyway. We also don't know how the cool downs work for each weapon, it is quite possible a semi automatic weapon will have a higher rate of fire than what we have seen, with specials such as burst etc needing a cool down to let the gun cool.

But what I would really like to point out is this, very very very few FPS guns fire realistically, even in America's army the guns were suped up to make them cooler. A lot of the guns have higher rates of fire, lower rates of fire, more or less recoil, massively decreased load times, much higher levels of accuracy, much longer sustained fire etc etc etc. So arguing that this system is not realistic, is like arguing that Middle earth is not a fantasy world because its not like Narnia.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2009, 10:42:53 PM by Diziet » Logged
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Thatim
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« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2009, 11:14:02 PM »
Quote from: Xyleya on April 18, 2009, 11:04:14 PM
cooldown = rate of fire

Makes more sense now?

AA said, that there will be a range of 1-4 seconds RoF, based on the weapon you use.

I wanted to say something along those lines.

Ever fired a mortar? I bet it has a "cooldown" of around 20 secs if you have to do it all yourself.
Besides, no cooldown? Doesnt that turn everything in a sort of a laser? A continues stream of bullets?

Or am I misinterpertating stuff?
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Zoream
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« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2009, 01:06:32 AM »
Quote from: Thatim on April 18, 2009, 11:14:02 PM
I wanted to say something along those lines.

Ever fired a mortar? I bet it has a "cooldown" of around 20 secs if you have to do it all yourself.
Besides, no cooldown? Doesnt that turn everything in a sort of a laser? A continues stream of bullets?

Or am I misinterpertating stuff?

yeah a startrek phaser on continuos use, like a mile long lightsaber, doesnt sound very good does it,

If there where no cooldown on shots you would just spam the most damaging shots,
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Kole
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« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2009, 01:18:39 AM »
Quote from: Xyleya on April 18, 2009, 11:04:14 PM
cooldown = rate of fire

Makes more sense now?

AA said, that there will be a range of 1-4 seconds RoF, based on the weapon you use.

He also mentioned a .5 second cool down.

But personally I find the cooldowns too long.

And technically cool downs in ER is different from the weapon rate of fire:

    If your basic attack is on cool down, you can still shoot special attack abilities with your weapon.

In the MMORPG.com vids we can see the power strike and punishing strike abilities are not greyed out while the weapon basic attack is in cool down. From what I can see someone could fire off a basic shot, a power strike, and a punishing strike all while the weapon basic attack is in cool down.
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Thatim
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« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2009, 01:19:51 AM »
Quote from: Kole on April 19, 2009, 01:18:39 AM
He also mentioned a .5 second cool down.

But personally I find the cooldowns too long.

And technically cool downs in ER is different from the weapon rate of fire:

    If your basic attack is on cool down, you can still shoot special attack abilities with your weapon.

In the MMORPG.com vids we can see the power strike and punishing strike abilities are not greyed out while the weapon basic attack is in cool down. From what I can see someone could fire off a basic shot, a power strike, and a punishing strike all while the weapon basic attack is in cool down.

Maybe the CD's are too long.. but we can't know yet. Beta hasn't started..

So please.. Try considering that we know nothing about the gameplay.
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Zoream
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« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2009, 01:30:33 AM »
Think of the basic attack as the replacement for auto attack, but you have to choose to press that attack or another more powerful, or one with a different effect, an auto attack always had a cooldown.
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Kole
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« Reply #12 on: April 19, 2009, 01:35:25 AM »
Quote from: Zoream on April 19, 2009, 01:30:33 AM
Think of the basic attack as the replacement for auto attack, but you have to choose to press that attack or another more powerful, or one with a different effect, an auto attack always had a cooldown.

Thats not the point of the discussion. Some people have tried to justify the cooldown time on weapon's firing by saying its the weapons rate of fire. I was just pointing out that thats not true because the weapon can still be fired during the basic attack cooldown via special attacks.

Basic attack cool down time is only equivalent to rate of fire is it imposes a global cooldown on all of your weapon special attacks.
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Joker
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« Reply #13 on: April 19, 2009, 02:32:21 AM »
So are you saying that if I fire off an m4 in rl that I will have a cooldown between each shot? Because I would think the main time I would stop would be for reloading and for aiming (also for barrel heat and jam but these are on occasions or happen very very rarely). All I am agruing is that cooldowns are simply not rate of fire. Should never been rate of fire. The deciding factor of rate of fire should be the person or the guns restriction (semi auto, auto, etc...) 


Now, I am starting to feel like this was a dumb idea to post because ER is soft lock. Also there is no hitboxes. So it really does not matter about aiming (so they add cooldowns to compensate) . I just guess I am saying that I am sick of click, fire, wait ( only difference is soft lock). I do not get why they say it will be fast paced combat because in all honest cooldowns only slow down combat.  Maybe I do not get the combat system as well still... Maybe it is just like any other mmo out there (basic fundamentals just a little bit twicked..)
« Last Edit: April 19, 2009, 02:33:54 AM by Joker » Logged
Thatim
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« Reply #14 on: April 19, 2009, 03:02:14 AM »
Quote from: Joker on April 19, 2009, 02:32:21 AM
So are you saying that if I fire off an m4 in rl that I will have a cooldown between each shot? Because I would think the main time I would stop would be for reloading and for aiming (also for barrel heat and jam but these are on occasions or happen very very rarely). All I am agruing is that cooldowns are simply not rate of fire. Should never been rate of fire. The deciding factor of rate of fire should be the person or the guns restriction (semi auto, auto, etc...) 


Now, I am starting to feel like this was a dumb idea to post because ER is soft lock. Also there is no hitboxes. So it really does not matter about aiming (so they add cooldowns to compensate) . I just guess I am saying that I am sick of click, fire, wait ( only difference is soft lock). I do not get why they say it will be fast paced combat because in all honest cooldowns only slow down combat.  Maybe I do not get the combat system as well still... Maybe it is just like any other mmo out there (basic fundamentals just a little bit twicked..)





Yes, there is a CD.

Although it is less then 0.5 sec. Your bullets dont just "conga" outside  Wink

Hmm now I think of it..

WTB Conga gun!
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