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September 10, 2010, 05:43:08 AM

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Author Topic: (QOTW 01122009) What do you see? (On Invisibility)  (Read 7656 times)
Ouzi
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« Reply #15 on: January 12, 2009, 05:42:28 AM »

thyeve said nothing different from your bog standard wow clone, now lets see if they can pull the balance off
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Kole
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« Reply #16 on: January 12, 2009, 07:11:04 AM »

What kind of a tradeoff would the community want of stealth?

I think the way the QOTW is worded that a cloak isn't part of a suit but a device.

Now I can't tell from the wording of the QOTW if the reference to suit power is a lore justification or an actual game mechanic. It could simply mean that activating a cloak greys out the abilities on your ability bar and may also negate some passive buffs your armor provide.

However, we do know that power/energy is a stat pool used to power tech based abilities. It could be that a cloak when engaged draws off a players power pool. Meaning that the size of the pool and its rate of regen determine the length for which a player can stay cloaked.

This could approach an almost EVE-ish  fitting scheme where you're free to choose the armor suit, the gear, and the skills to maximize power pool size and regen and minimize the cloaks consumption

An interesting feature would be differing cloak power consuption cost when  stationary and when moving. People could choose to fit/skill themselves out so they could cloak but had to remain stationary (the duck-blind hunters) while others could move (the prowlers).

Another interesting feature would be an initial high power cost to create the cloaking field and a continuous cost to maintain its stability. This would mean that people "pulled" out of stealth or people who already used some abilities in combat might not have enough power pool left to initialize another cloaking field.

edit -> Another thought:
A fade out time. In addition to, or in replacement of a high startup cost, it could take 1-2 seconds for a person to enter stealth. Getting hit during that time could destabilize the cloak field, interupting the stealthing. It could also prevent the cloakers from using a weapon or abilities due to the power being redirected to the cloak. It wouldn't prevent cloaking while in combat, but it would sure make it harder.

If you want to really punish a cloaker, you could say that their cloak field replaces their shield. I.e. they become extremely vulnerable while in stealth. If using the fade out mechanic presented above, it would be really risky to try to cloak during combat.

« Last Edit: January 12, 2009, 12:22:29 PM by Kole » Logged

uh
hmmm
wha...
really?
Noteleet
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« Reply #17 on: January 12, 2009, 08:08:37 AM »

Glad to hear that invisibility will have its drawbacks.

I'd rather people be able to do so, but in a way that they get less out of their invisibility. ie, greater power drain, lower duration, that sort of thing. Limits should be inherent in the gear combinations themselves, not arbitrarily imposed.

I'd also like the focus to be more on active management in the field, rather than what equipment layout you leave your base with.

I'd rather have it like this as well, as long as the lack of restrictions doesn't breed one right build. Cookie cutter builds get boring pretty fast.
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Viptir
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« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2009, 08:14:25 AM »

Referring back to the other thread as well, but some of the main concerns weren't really answered. Here's my #1:

Can people use stealth as a "get out of jail free card" to escape combat?

That right there is the game breaker for me.
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Uwi
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« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2009, 09:28:37 AM »

I think if a cloaked person with melee skills gets up close it's cripple and good game in 1 vs 1.
And that's how it should bé, if you"re standing still in an unsecure zone then you're asking for it.
On the suits thing, I really hope crafters will be able to craft armor suits with a certain limited amount "powers".
A skilled crafter could then either put more powers on a suit, or make the effects stronger....it all sounds very exciting, can't wait to get the first glimpse at the entire crafting/gear/combat relationship.
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koss
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« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2009, 10:04:18 AM »

I just hope its implemented simply and intuitively. Too many moving parts is bad.
The most simple balancing method would be to drain the power, thus leading to an ambusher beginning the fight with less power than his attacker. Also I like kole's idea where entering stealth would require like over 40% power level. Problem is we don't know how much power can be regenerated or potted.

Power as the critical drawback would basically create a strategy revolving around the ganker's power level at the initial moment of the ambush. A defender would have full power and the ambusher would be constrained on power. That right there could shape the whole battle such that the attacker can afford buffs/debuffs/CC where as the attacker is lower on power and must utilize his power specifically on damage output.
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Tenshi
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« Reply #21 on: January 12, 2009, 10:21:44 AM »

Referring back to the other thread as well, but some of the main concerns weren't really answered. Here's my #1:

Can people use stealth as a "get out of jail free card" to escape combat?

That right there is the game breaker for me.

That's why there would be stealth detecting tools etc,
I mean, how fun would the game be if there
was no challenge in tracking down opponents?
(Especially if its a single server, I mean there'll be many people 0_0)
Always good to have a bit of strategy, anyways.
But, I'm sure that the stealth detector tools at an advanced level
would help you substantially.

It would make it less interesting if people couldn't do that .
Just depends on how its implemented and how balanced it is ( Wouldn't want everyone in the game with it, without effort, though XD).
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Viptir
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« Reply #22 on: January 12, 2009, 11:52:45 AM »

That wasn't the point of the question. I was referring to people popping stealth while in combat and running off to avoid being killed. We've seen that abused to the point of... well... these threads with a lot of people opposed to stealth. In past games, that wasn't the intent. But like many things, the inventive and unintended effect was overlooked and never corrected. Basically, a lot of anti-stealth people would accept it if it was a positional entrance into combat, or spying, sneaking past, et cetera... but once engaged in combat, the ability would need to be disabled.

The other complaint was the mention of the stealth detection. I believe "popular" was the term used. You can just replace that with "mandatory if you want to survive." Forcing a mechanic/ability/skill/gear upon the playerbase is NOT sandbox. Sure, folks will say you don't have to have it, noone is pointing a gun to your head and ... hey, where'd he come from... and why is there a gun to my head?
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Tenshi
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« Reply #23 on: January 12, 2009, 12:11:12 PM »

That wasn't the point of the question. I was referring to people popping stealth while in combat and running off to avoid being killed. We've seen that abused to the point of... well... these threads with a lot of people opposed to stealth. In past games, that wasn't the intent. But like many things, the inventive and unintended effect was overlooked and never corrected. Basically, a lot of anti-stealth people would accept it if it was a positional entrance into combat, or spying, sneaking past, et cetera... but once engaged in combat, the ability would need to be disabled.

The other complaint was the mention of the stealth detection. I believe "popular" was the term used. You can just replace that with "mandatory if you want to survive." Forcing a mechanic/ability/skill/gear upon the playerbase is NOT sandbox. Sure, folks will say you don't have to have it, noone is pointing a gun to your head and ... hey, where'd he come from... and why is there a gun to my head?

Ah right,
i'd imagine there would be a mechanism which would
not allow people to pop off stealth whilst in combat.
Well, that was easy, heh Wink.

Yeah, but I guess that argument could be applied
to many things in ER.
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Uwi
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« Reply #24 on: January 12, 2009, 05:22:43 PM »

Actually I don't agree, if people are already at a disadvantage just for having a cloak suite, then why should we want to put them at an even greater disadvantage?
I think if you don't want a cloak suited guy to bail out on you, then you should equip the tools to prevent him from doing so!
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Talash
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« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2009, 12:40:46 AM »

Very cool.  Sounds like the kind of thing that many players will have fun balance testing in the beta. Smiley

The PvP benefits seem pretty obvious, but I wonder if this will also be effective in PvE situations?  Is this a player-only ability or will we see enemy robots and the like taking advantage of this as well?
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fuelpro
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« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2009, 12:54:20 AM »

I think mobs will end up being able to stealth as well, the more variety in mobs the better! I can definitely feel some kind of abuse on the invisibility will occur during the beta!   Roll Eyes
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cid_mutation
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« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2009, 01:21:02 AM »

Glad to hear that invisibility will have its drawbacks.

I'd rather people be able to do so, but in a way that they get less out of their invisibility. ie, greater power drain, lower duration, that sort of thing. Limits should be inherent in the gear combinations themselves, not arbitrarily imposed.

I'd also like the focus to be more on active management in the field, rather than what equipment layout you leave your base with.

I think that if the crafting is complex has they say it is, crafter are gonna be able to put a cloaking fiel in any armor but the inconveniant of the cloaking technology may be to much for big power armor and you end up with half cloaked metal can.
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Tourniquet
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« Reply #28 on: January 13, 2009, 01:30:58 AM »

Glad to see that you guys will make tradeoffs by using the cloaking device, and that it's already under testing.

Make sure to check some little details while stealthed, like the footsteps sound, which is something really important and some games have forgotten about them.
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Pipboy2000
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« Reply #29 on: January 13, 2009, 01:54:17 AM »

Stealth for everyone, done nicely can be good, being able to disappear in front of everyones noses however(hai AoC/WoW/AO/<lots of other MMOs>) is retarded.

Then again, the only game that has ever done stealthing and sneaking correctly is Thief, which was kinda the whole point of the game heh, so no point in comparing.

It does sound promising however, it doesn't sound as your normal rogue hiding and most importantly, it doesn't sound as if the person disappears right in front of your nose :p
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