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September 10, 2010, 04:55:40 AM

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Author Topic: (QOTW 12292008) Hide and Go Seek (Stealth, Hiding)  (Read 10023 times)
lugh
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« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2008, 12:28:15 PM »

I'de say this is too little information to be completly unhappy about stealth.  The way it was worded, with multiple abilities to go into/detect steath makes me think there will be different types of stealth.  One might make you invisible, one might make you not show up on radar, one might make your thermal invisible, etc.  Then there are matching detections for each type of stealth.  Then you would only be able to have one type of stealth or detection on at a time. 

So if you want to not show up on radar, you can be seen.  If you want to not be seen, you'll show up on radar.  Or if its dark out (or a mob that hunts through thermal vision) and dont want someone with thermal vision to see you, you stealth your heat signiture.  Who know, there might also be a "stealth" so you don't make any noise.

This might only be wishful thinking, but it would make stealth alot less powerful, while still making it effective when used by an intelligent player.  At the same time, like Moll said, a paranoid player could constantly cycle through the stealth detections to keep on the lookout for anyone in any type of stealth.  We really won't know for sure until we either get more info or get to play the game.
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koss
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« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2008, 01:14:32 PM »

To clear up a common misperception, the answers to the questions of the week are written by the developers.

Given the number of followup questions raised on this topic, it's very likely we'll see this topic again as a Question of the Week, but not until after the new year at the earliest. (Next week's was already set before the holidays.)

Until that point, be assured we are reading your feedback closely and appreciate everyone's thoughts on the matter.

sorry Moll, putting the weight on your shoulders wasn't my intention. I was just hoping for more concept-oriented details, as opposed to a ambiguous idea of how it'll play out.

From the looks of it, MH isn't even that sure exactly how much stealth will be employed, otherwise they would have been more specific? Maybe that means stealth can still get a pre-nerf. Undecided
« Last Edit: December 29, 2008, 01:17:51 PM by koss » Logged
babylon
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« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2008, 01:27:40 PM »

i'm hoping the devs continue with their plans for this game, and don't "pre-nerf" stealth, so we get to play an undiluted version of what they have in mind.

once we've played the game then i reckon we'll have fair scope to comment.
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Joker
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« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2008, 01:48:45 PM »

i'm hoping the devs continue with their plans for this game, and don't "pre-nerf" stealth, so we get to play an undiluted version of what they have in mind.

once we've played the game then i reckon we'll have fair scope to comment.
/Agreed! 100% YES YES YES!
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Tyrus Dark
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« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2008, 03:08:26 PM »

It seems like almost everything is not counted unless the line of sight is entirely obscured (logically by solid objects - terrain or walls).  They literally said "Cover will not be part of the combat system"... then pointed out that buildings would provide full protection.  That seems pretty literal and straight forward to me... any possible discrepancies would seem like wishful thinking.

Another way of looking at is that they don't have a partial cover game mechanic... which leaves an all or nothing line of sight.
Well, I'm assuming that much as well, but my post was really addressing the bolded parts of your point, that it's very easy to assume any full sight-blocking object or terrain will block fire, but how big is a tree before it falls under 'building' category? How tall does a stone wall have to be?  what width does a boulder or terrain element have to be before it's ALLOWED to be considered blocking line of sight? Is there an exposure cap (can I have my rocket launcher sticking out the end of a terrain element and be hit? or is my rocket launcher "graphics" and not "me")

based on those answers this could easily swing from "decent system" to "just point and shoot and forget tactical environments"
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Mironov
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« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2008, 04:34:44 PM »

i guess i will not fall to any false conclusions about the stealth mechanics before i actually try it with my own hands Smiley
Until that, let's see, what devs have to say to clarify about stealth, if they can give out  any additional info regarding this..
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Ouzi
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« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2008, 10:00:24 PM »

To clear up a common misperception, the answers to the questions of the week are written by the developers.

Given the number of followup questions raised on this topic, it's very likely we'll see this topic again as a Question of the Week, but not until after the new year at the earliest. (Next week's was already set before the holidays.)

Until that point, be assured we are reading your feedback closely and appreciate everyone's thoughts on the matter.

nice to see you are well aware of our worries
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Quinn
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« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2008, 10:21:38 PM »

While cover and active hiding behind smaller objects will not be part of the combat system, players will have the option to hide behind buildings and expect to be safe from direct attacks.

I am extremely concerned about this, as I was looking forward to a game similar to Mass Effect. Active cover is something that I have been dieing to see within a MMO. It would solve a lot of the strafing and bunny hopping issues that are faced with any FPS-RPG mix. Take the NGE in Star Wars Galaxies for example, it had no cover system and it degraded into Kite Wars Galaxies. (Though this had always been the case, it was at least not encouraged since pre-NGE had buffs for crouching and proning).

Please.. please, please please.. and I say again, please.. give us active cover, to make people play with more tact, and it wouldn't hurt the immersion to impliment it with an in-cover animation either. (Refer back to Mass Effect)
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babylon
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« Reply #38 on: December 30, 2008, 12:04:24 AM »

The paranoids Moll mentioned who cycle their stealth-detection-systems just to be sure are 75% of the players (low estimate!) and that simply makes it mandatory. If something is mandatory (read: forced gamemechanic) you can't do without, then you better implement it as automatic system -> automatic stealth detection = no stealth.

i understand your concern, but to be honest i see no difference between the paranoia of constantly rotating camera angle to see if someone is about to range-snipe you from afar, and using detection abilities to see if someone is about to melee-sneak you from up close. paranoia is paranoia. so long as we get abilities to counteract and deflect sudden unwanted attention, everything should be just fine.

also it sounds as if we will want to use these stealthing abilities for certain quests, and i really want to see how these quests play out (they sound like fun).
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Devildog1
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« Reply #39 on: December 30, 2008, 12:47:50 AM »

Wow the cover, hiding, and stealh options in the game sound great! I also like the counter measures! Over all these options sound awesome keep up the good work!
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Viptir
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« Reply #40 on: December 30, 2008, 01:18:25 AM »

Wow the cover, hiding, and stealh options in the game sound great! I also like the counter measures! Over all these options sound awesome keep up the good work!

What cover and hiding options? The lack of them?
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Chibi
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« Reply #41 on: December 30, 2008, 01:33:48 AM »

I really don't have to wait and test it, before I can scream "NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!".

I've played so many MMOs with stealth-abilities, that I'm pretty sure about it what will happen.

Either "all" people run around cloaked or they only run around in big groups.

The paranoids Moll mentioned who cycle their stealth-detection-systems just to be sure are 75% of the players (low estimate!) and that simply makes it mandatory. If something is mandatory (read: forced gamemechanic) you can't do without, then you better implement it as automatic system -> automatic stealth detection = no stealth.

Didn't seem to work out that way for Planet Side which was pretty pvp centric... :>
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Emerald22
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« Reply #42 on: December 30, 2008, 01:54:49 AM »

Planetside handled it perfectly, their cloakers are deadly to a distracted troop or two but easy to put down for the wary, the less they move more invisable they are, standing still is completely invisable and moving/shooting is 25% visable maybe, they only have 1 pistol slot and a knife with reduced inventory space, so less deadly then other troops damage wise but hard to hit and get upclose to the unprepared. Balanced well with one or two quick kill weopons that you can avoid if you hear their prefire sound effects.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 01:56:28 AM by Emerald22 » Logged
Ouzi
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« Reply #43 on: December 30, 2008, 03:34:22 AM »

Didn't seem to work out that way for Planet Side which was pretty pvp centric... :>

I think tbh the planetside comparisons have to stop, these are clearly very different games
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Chibi
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« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2008, 05:25:53 AM »

Tbh if that is the case, might as well stop making assumptions about a cloaking system in that we clearly have no idea of how it is going really going to work.  So that we may reserve our comments until we actually try it Wink 

*Edit: Adding an explanation to my reasoning*

Really though, if it is not clearly going to be like Planet Side, or any other game with stealth how can you talk about comparison?

The most commonly used game (and criticism) comes from comparing it to WoW.  That game is based on levels, distributed attribute points, loots used to determine how go character is, etc.  So it has no real basis for comparison.  It couldnt possibly be compared to PE since it has no stealth system even though it has an open ended skill system, and similar targeting.  (You can either aim at mobs yourself and fire,  or select the box around the mob and have your target attack it).  NeoCron has one that could be similar to it, but again it is based on levels which are different than WoW's but still not open ended in the way ER will be.  You could also compare it to UO since it had a stealth system and an open ended way of leveling but this does not sound right either.  Eve is a completely different game, and way of doing stealth so you cant compare it to that. 

Not trying to be argumentative, but if we do not compare it to something which we know about then we really have no basis by which to even argue.  So that being said what would be the point of continuing the discussion, aside from perhaps mentioning what we would like it to be like? 

*Puts away soap box* Roll Eyes
« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 05:47:40 AM by Chibi » Logged

"The first prototype of combat in Earthrise was developed under a command-line text-only application, featuring a Continomian Guard attacking a bunny. Most of the initial sessions had the bunny as a victor."

 -Moll
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