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Author Topic: Mob Leashes, Run Speed & Related AI  (Read 1829 times)
Maelstrom
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« on: December 21, 2008, 11:18:01 PM »

Mob Leash - a term used to describe the range to which a mob will chase the player character before snapping back and returning to its game world placement, route or habits.  In many MMO's, the mob will rapidly or instantly regenerate health once it has run out of leash & returns to it's placement.. and/or may gain a substantial evade boost while returning.

I've witnessed standard leash ranges in some mmo's, where every mob chases a player to the exact same distance before breaking off the pursuit... to varied leash ranges depending on the mob type... to where crossing a zone line, exiting the game, dying or killing the mob is the only way to break aggro.

It'd be nice to see some variety programmed into this game mechanic.  Something like every creature has a specific leash range and when the creature is generated and placed in the game world, it's leash range is randomly selected between it's assigned minimum and maximum (ie 30m - 50m).  Or making the mob's pursuit distance relative to it's stamina pool... and also depleting it's stamina pool if the mob sprints.

Various run speeds should be applied to the mob as well, akin to their build.  Some mobs should be built for speed but not for stamina... they'll quickly close the gap between the PC and themselves, but perhaps break off a pursuit before too long if the player continues to run.  While others should be faster than the PC, but are only interested in chasing the player out of it's territory.

There should also be more thought put into the more intelligent species.  I imagine the majority of human npcs will engage in ranged combat (save the melee types).  It would be refreshing to see these npcs fire back from cover, instead of automatically chasing the player until he's in range.  Perhaps have some that won't move (no leash) from their defensive position, but may move to cover in order to break the line of sight if the player is out of range.... returning to it's assigned position once full healed/regenerated.  Yet other intelligent mobs could call for assistance as their first reaction to an attack... set off an alarm or retreat further into it's own territory.  Maybe even run like hell and hide heh.

A players faction standing could also come into effect when fighting certain npcs.  Perhaps the player is so hated by the organization that he's considered a target of opportunity and is pursued further than other players that haven't built up that amount of hate.  The occasional npc hunting party would be interesting... npcs that are sent out to kill the player once that player is noticed in their territory.  Although, there shouldn't be any faction hits related to the npc hunting party for group purposes.

I suppose I think variety in these areas would make the PvE content seem more dynamic and alive.  Witnessing human npcs react and act exactly the same as a wild animal in most mmo's can kill immersion.  I know there's restrictions to AI in games, but there definitely has to be plenty of room for improvement.
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speCta
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« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2008, 01:53:44 AM »

I can tell you're not really a fan of the term "TRAIN TO ZOOOONEEEE!" ... Well all in all, I'm all for the stamina aspect of mobs, as long as most monsters aren't stuck with having the same running speed as players. In way too many games you see these amazingly big and bad eight-legged monsters that run so slow it's almost sad, or these speedy little things that can't even keep up with a player in heavy armor. Terrible design.

Either monsters are faster than players and provide a sense of "don't touch unless you know you can kill them" or they're slow but have other advantages like being stronger than the rest.

But at the same time there would probably need to be some anti-kiting measures in place to prevent people from dragging slow mobs across the entire island.
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Maelstrom
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« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2008, 02:34:23 AM »

I can tell you're not really a fan of the term "TRAIN TO ZOOOONEEEE!" ... Well all in all, I'm all for the stamina aspect of mobs, as long as most monsters aren't stuck with having the same running speed as players. In way too many games you see these amazingly big and bad eight-legged monsters that run so slow it's almost sad, or these speedy little things that can't even keep up with a player in heavy armor. Terrible design.

Either monsters are faster than players and provide a sense of "don't touch unless you know you can kill them" or they're slow but have other advantages like being stronger than the rest.

But at the same time there would probably need to be some anti-kiting measures in place to prevent people from dragging slow mobs across the entire island.

Heh, Train To Zone! brings back a lot of old EQ memories.  I was a fan of it... I also was a victim of it =)  I especially liked the slower movement speed when you were low on hitpoints, being clobbered by mobs and you were approaching the zone line... wondering if your health was going to hold up long enough to take those last few steps.

I couldn't agree more with the way a lot of MMO's have handled the run speed in the past... terrible design indeed.
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Tallath
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« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2008, 03:11:23 AM »

FFXI was funny with that. Originally you could PK others by gathering up all the mobs, than either DC'ing/dying/ or zoning. Then all the mobs would attack the nearest player... good times (they fixed that, now they just despawn Sad )

speCta, sounds like you would enjoy A.O's mob system. Different mobs had different speeds, and you could increase your run skill to out run them (as I did alot). The kiting actually wouldn't be a problem if you had to spend points in speed (not sure how that would work) since not everyone would be willing to do so, only a few would be able to KIT every single thing.

(Hm... now I'm curious as to how often one will gain experience points and how the steepness will incline as more skills are learned :/ - thanks alot )
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koss
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« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2008, 07:55:19 AM »

A players faction standing could also come into effect when fighting certain npcs.  Perhaps the player is so hated by the organization that he's considered a target of opportunity and is pursued further than other players that haven't built up that amount of hate.  The occasional npc hunting party would be interesting... npcs that are sent out to kill the player once that player is noticed in their territory.  Although, there shouldn't be any faction hits related to the npc hunting party for group purposes.

AI scripts like that would be pretty sweet. My favorite thing about GTA is actually how dynamic the authorities presence is. Who knows, maybe ER will have something like that. I would like to see it at least up to par with AI found in RPGs and shooters, which seems like a mighty task.
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Isodus
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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2008, 08:44:34 AM »

I too have been wondering how good the AI would be in this game, whether or not they will run for cover or what not.  Tallath I actually played AO as well, and I have to say I did very much enjoy the kiting ability, it would allow you to kill mobs you normally wouldnt stand a chance against, but one slip up and you were probably dead (get too close and they hit you, snare you, or otherwise totally blow you into oblivion).  I'd definitely hope MHS has the insight to put in varying leash lengths depending on the mob and then each mob having a predetermined range that its leash may fall into.  On a slightly related note, I don't know how many games have abilities that require you to be behind your target and how many give a benefit to being behind your target (less chance to dodge, greater crit chance, etc.) but it really bugs me when MMO's implement stuff like that but every single mob always faces you unless of course you stun them.  WoW is the easiest example I can think of, all melee get a huge benefit from attacking from behind (the mob can't dodge or parry iirc, and then certain skills only work from behind) but if you are the only thing on its aggro list, then it will always face you unless you stun or incapacitate it.  I hope that if there are benefits to attacking from behind that mobs maybe turn a little slower (doesn't have to be all but a least a decent amount, the harder the mob the harder to get behind it) or there are ways to get behind and attack them without them immediately facing you again.
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Maelstrom
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2008, 10:41:54 AM »

Is this the thread that you had in mind?:

http://forums.play-earthrise.com/index.php?topic=1696.0
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Stricnine
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« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2008, 10:45:20 AM »

No matter how well they structure the AI I do hope they inject some wonderful randomness into it. The problem I've had with other MMOs is that the same mob will react to the same things the same way every single time. It's predictable and boring.

It would be even better if the randomness would increase as the mob's health decreased, as the more desperate the situation the more unpredictable their actions. Keep people on their toes and you will keep them engaged.

And if kiting is a viable tactic in this game, then one screw-up should kill the kiter, damn good point.

« Last Edit: December 22, 2008, 09:10:49 PM by Stricnine » Logged
Joker
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« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2008, 10:47:58 AM »

Is this the thread that you had in mind?:

http://forums.play-earthrise.com/index.php?topic=1696.0
Hmm I should of put Mob instead of AI. I am useless with the search... Ohh well... But yes that is it. That give a good explanation of what to expect. So yeah... the topic has pretty much just been killed with bit of information.

And Burek thanks for saying that.. I will talk/e-mail to zigzag and ask whats up with the transcripts. Hopefully he can get it back up. Those were some really good transcripts and some really good questions were asked.
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Burek
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« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2008, 10:52:51 AM »

I hope the AI is atleast advanced enough that if kited, it will recognise that it can't catch up and back off/find cover, etc.
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Maelstrom
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« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2008, 11:16:32 AM »

I'd take it one step further:

If I ever saw a game where a mob kites a player character, I'd laugh my arse off and play that game for the rest of my natural born life.
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Isodus
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« Reply #11 on: December 23, 2008, 05:46:54 AM »

Well from the QotW I guess that answers most of 1/3 of this topic, sounds like MH put a lot of thought into the AI and making each encounter a different experience.  Well here is hoping they take that same amount of randomness and apply it to mobs dependent (or should it be independent?) of it's behavioral pattern that it spawned with.  Those mobs who are more aggressive and self sacrificing should run faster and have a longer leash, those that are cowardice could have a short leash but also run fast, and then those who turn a blind eye to action around them could have a short leash and also run slowly.

Maelstrom: That would be awesome, a ranged mob that runs fast and it's AI tells it to always kite the player and maybe use snares to slow its target down, god that would be frustrating and hilarious to watch at the same time.
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chronos
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« Reply #12 on: December 23, 2008, 09:40:38 AM »

a random behavior in mobs would be excellent IMO. This would really force players to pay attention and it would offer a more realistic playing environment.
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Maelstrom
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« Reply #13 on: December 23, 2008, 11:14:38 AM »

Maelstrom: That would be awesome, a ranged mob that runs fast and it's AI tells it to always kite the player and maybe use snares to slow its target down, god that would be frustrating and hilarious to watch at the same time.

Lol, that would be outstanding.  If I were a dev, I'd spend countless hours of my own time scripting that... just to have one mob that screws with unfortunate players in that way.
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« Reply #14 on: December 23, 2008, 11:40:09 AM »

If I ever saw a game where a mob kites a player character, I'd laugh my arse off and play that game for the rest of my natural born life.

That would be a great idea for a boss-type or rare mob.  But if there was a bunch of mobs that need to be farmed for resources like that, Im pretty sure I'de go crazy after a few minutes.
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